Saturday, November 25, 2006

Quote

A quote from the late US Republican Senator Barry Goldwater, godfather of the American conservative movement back when it was a principled party and a far cry from the religious nutcases currently inhabiting it. Read it and spot the parallels with the scene in Kuwait today.

"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them...

There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism'.


هل لدينا نواب أو وزراء أو حتى شيوخ بهذه الشجاعة؟

24 comments:

  1. Goldwater was always a nutcase.

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  2. قالها و شفادته او شنو استفادو منها
    الى وراه ؟

    مو امتلكوا الحزب الجمهورى من وراه ؟
    شوف جون ماكين شلون يتمصلح لهم الحين
    حتى يخلونه يترشح رئيس

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  3. كلام حكيم, وخلاصة القول: بلدنا- وعالمنا يحتاج للشجعان. تدري يا زيدون، اليوم كنت اسولف مع صديق ومدون عن موضوع محاباة الحزب الجمهوري للآطراف اليمينية المتخلفة وتاثير ذلك على التعليم والبحث العلمي في الولايات المتحدة الامريكية. بداية بالحد من تعليم نظريات التطور في الاحياء والجيولوجيا والكون وانتهاءآً بوقف الابحاث على الخلايا
    الجذعية.
    Recommended reading: The Republican War on Science

    إن كان الامر كذلك في امريكا، فماذا عن الكويت؟ لدينا المفروض معرض للكتاب، لكنه أجرد من المفيد ومليان من كتب العلوم الكاذبة والتواريخ الزائفة والبلعات والسحر والتخاريف. بالمقابل هناك مؤتمر متروس خرابيط على هذه الشاكلة:
    http://nooran.org/con8/main.htm
    الإعجاز العلمي في الإهلاك بالصيحة / الداء والدواء في جناحي الذبابة / أسرار مسواك عود الأراك وتأثيره على صحة الفم ومناعة الخلايا البشري

    سخافة مابعدها سخافة!
    اكيد راح نشوف حفاوة بالمهرجين الذين سيقدمون مثل هذه السخافات - والتي بالطبع لن تنشر في أية مجلة طبية او علميه

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  4. Interesting qoute, as a maverick (like John McCain, Russ Fiengold, among many others), my view in religion and politics can be summarized in two qoutes:

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" Napoleon Bonaparte (The French Emperor)

    "The problem with ideology is, if you've got an ideology, you've already got your mind made up. You know all the answers and that makes evidence irrelevant and arguments a waste of time. You tend to govern by assertion and attacks", President Bill Clinton

    The "liberals" should not be anti-religion, they should move religions forward, with their vision of progressiveness.

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  5. purgatory... I used to think so too, but seeing where the Republicans are today he now sounds like the voice of sanity

    forzaq8... the recent mid-term elections proved him right. Many Republicans voted Democrat because they were frightened by the increasing influence of the religions right, among other reasons

    الفال لنا نتخلص من المتأسلمين وفسادهم

    q80_demon... Read this sad report

    q8maverick... Liberals are not anti-religion, we are anti-shoving-religion-where-it-doesn't-belong!

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  6. Zaydoun:
    Sad >:-(

    "Where they burn books, they will end in burning human beings."
    (Christian Heinrich-Heine)

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  7. ايه، لدينا، ما شفتهم شلون تساببوا ذاك اليوم في المجلس
    انهم فخر الخليج والعالم العربي والاسلامي
    سيدي، بيننا وبين مثل هذا التفكير ، لاومن شخص محافظ، مئات السنوات، لا تقارن حتى لا تتعب قلبك

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  8. Zaydoun,
    I'm not saying that liberals are anti-religion, I might written this one badly. What I'm saying that they have to articulate their message to change this public perception.

    Regarding, Democrats recent wins, as someone who followed the elections very closely, this will be reason number 10 or 11 for the switch, unless you can show me some polls regarding this.

    I believe that the reason for Democrats win is that they conquered the Republican strong point, National Security and Morals. First by critisizng the Iraq debacle, second by highlighting the corruption scandals that marred the republicans (most noticeably the Foley scandals), the message was we can bring ethics and high morals back the house.

    We won't get rid of the political islamic parties in our politics unless we conquer their stronghold, morals.

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  9. q8maverick... most of the American "morals" crowd turned out to be corrupt

    Now if only we can expose the corruption in our own "homegrown" morals crowd

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  10. شنقول و شنحجي يا بو الزيد

    خلها على الله, انا ميأس من الوضع عندنا

    الدين من صوب
    و القبيلة من صوب
    و المذهب من صوب
    و الشعب اللايث من صوب

    ياخي مع احترامي للجميع بس أعتقد ان الأغلبية العظمى من شعبنا ناس لايثة ماشية على البركة, تخلف تخلف تخلف

    و الحل الأسرع هو ان يكون هناك حاكم شجاع يحسم الأمور و يضع النقاط على الحروف و يخط للمتدينين حدودهم و يؤسس أو يعيد تأسيس حدود المواطن و حقوقه و واجباته

    احنا نقول الدين شي وايد زين حق اللي يبي الآخرة و يدش الجنة, لكن صلاتك و صيامك و زكاتك و حجك لك انت و لآخرتك, مو حق الدولة و اللي ما يصوم و يصلي ممكن يكون عبد سيء, لكن ليس مواطن سيء بالضرورة

    تعبت من هالموضوع الصراحة يعني نفسيا اتعب من هالمواضيع

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  11. KM

    انت اللي كنت متفائل هذاك اليوم... شفيك قلبت؟

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  12. Zaydoun,
    I would recommend this read, to understand how the morals/religious vote shift in the recent midterm elections.

    http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2006/11/jim-wallis-this-was-moral-values.html

    One interesting qoute "Even the Wall Street Journal reported, ?More than in 2004, Democrats this year attracted voters moved by faith, and not just frustration. Exit polls suggest that Democrats made significant gains among several religious demographic groups, including both Catholics and evangelical Protestants.?"

    Concentrate on the last three paragraphs, and these are the lessons we need to learn. Reach and Involvement don't just rely on frustration.

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  13. Zaydoun,

    It seems that you & Andrew Sullivan do agree on points..

    Something extra for your wits:

    http://www.zshare.net/download/to-god-then-to-history1-pdf.html

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  14. I may not agree with Goldwater's political ideology (for want of a better word) but I think he was one of the last few thinking men in a party that has become a disaster. I actually want to see the documentary on him that his granddaughter worked on, because I want some insight into the Republican Party before it became the mess it is today. That said, I don?t approve of Republicans, even looking back at the Reagan or Nixon eras. I don?t agree with their fiscal or foreign policies. I do partially believe in the small government thing, but not to the extent they did back in the day. (I wonder if GW and friends even pretend to believe in that part anymore.)

    Also, just to make things clear, I don't actually think that mixing Religion and Politics is the root of all evil like some of you do, but I do believe that throwing logic and compromise out of the equation is.

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  15. final sense

    I rarely ever agreed with Sullivan up until recently and I was even debating whether to link the quote in my post back to his blog or to its original source

    And what was the point of the PDF you just "recommended"? Could you at least send the Cliff Notes?

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  16. q8maverick.. point noted.

    But remember this post is not about respecting people's religious beliefs which I fully support - for all religions - but about religious people in power dictating their fundamentals on the rest of us by force and threats to our way of life.

    To bring the discussion back to Kuwait, there are plenty of conservative religious people who keep their faith to themselves and their immediate circles, and are also appalled by the belligerence and ruthlessness of Islamist politicians who abuse Islam in the name of power... Sadly our liberal crowd has not been able to reach out to this disaffected group in adequate numbers. Yet!

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  17. Z,
    I thought this might interest you.


    http://adiamondinsunlight.wordpress.com/2006/11/21/the-new-public-blogosphere/

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  18. Whether you?re liberal, humanitarian, New Yorker or whatever, we?re all for justice here; usually from different perspectives. The quote stated somewhat that. But did it show the way to unite such differences?

    To them; maybe yes, secularism. To us; no, it can never. So, bringing it up was an idea, or even a wish of changing the constitution?

    The banned extra PDF is an educational read. Nothing more.

    مسح آراء الأمريكيين بعد 200 سنة من التجربة العلمانية**
    51%
    - يعتقد أن الكنائس يجب أن تعطى حرية التعبير عن آرائها، ولكن 45% يقولون أن الكنيسة يجب أن لا تتدخل في الشؤون السياسية.

    70%
    ? قالوا أنه من المهم أن يكون للرئيس معتقد ديني قوي، ولكن 50% قالوا أنهم لا يرتاحون عندما يناقش الساسة آراءهم الدينية.
    54%
    ? يحبذون أن يعطى التمويل الحكومي للمؤسسات الدينية لتقدم الخدمات الاجتماعية

    المصدر موقع مؤسسة ( بيو) اللاربحية العريقة:

    http://www.pewtrust.com/ideas/index.cfm?issue=17

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  19. Back in the day, the saying was -

    SEX SELLS


    Nowadays, in my opinion -

    FAITH SELLS


    Its the best business to get into these days, best examples - Al3affasy and Amr Khaled

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  20. عندما تتعمق بقضية واحدة ممكن تتفائل لأنك تشوف حلول معقولة كما حصل مع قضية الانتخابات و مجلس الامة

    الحل أو الحلول كثيرة و خطوة تعديل الدوائر احد هذه الحلول و حمدالله تفاألنا و اشتغلنا عليها

    المشكلة لمن تنظر للأمور بنظرة شمولية أو لمن تكون اكثر من قضية داشة بالسالفة هني أيأس الصراحة لأن ماكو حل, و لو اكو حل فهو صعب جدا و غير ملموس

    قضية محاولة المتدينين السيطرة على الدولة هي قضية شائكة و مثل ما تفضلت هي قضية تاريخية و عالمية عانت منها الكثير من الشعوب على مر التاريخ

    و لم ينتهوا منها الا بعد دواء الكي و هذا اللي انا خايف انه يصير , او بالأصح خايف انه ما يصير من خلال المعطيات و النماذج اللي نشوفها بالشارع و الدواوين و العمل

    استانس لمن اقابل شباب كويتيين متنورين و عندهم اهتمامات و عندهم رأي و طموح, حتى عندما أختلف معهم في الرأي فأنا استمتع بهم و بخلافي معهم

    المشكلة لمن تشوف ناس هوب ليسس كييس

    hope less case

    ما منهم فايدة أو رجاء

    أساسهم غلط
    بنيانهم غلط
    تأسيسهم لأجيالهم القادمة غلط

    و العملية ماشية فيضيق خلقي

    ما هو الرجاء من شخص يبي معاش بدون لا يداوم؟ شتترجى من عياله و تربيته لهم؟

    شتترجى من شخص يعتبر الديرة كلها سلة مهملات وين ما كان يقط زبالته و وين ما كان يقط زقارته و يفركها بالرخام

    شتترجى من واحد يقترض و يدش دعوم بالبورصة و لين خسر يبكي يقول الهوامير و المحافظ؟ هذا شلون بيربي عياله و يعلمهم كيف يتصرفون بأموالهم

    يا بو الزيد المشكلة مو بالمقترضين حاليا و لا بالمتدينين حاليا, المشكلة بعيالهم و عيال عيالهم

    هاليهال على شنو قاعدين يتربون؟

    هذا اللي يضيق الخلق و حالة المدارس خو حدث ولا حرج

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  21. KM

    لا يضيق خلقك وانشاءالله البوست الجديد راح يرفع معنوياتك

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  22. Tr?s liberal coming from a con such as Goldwater.
    'Ave always found it rather difficult to judge, which is more dangerous: the religionization of politics or the politicization of religion?

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  23. da angel
    I would say both are equally dangerous

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  24. Both are two sides of the same coin. On balance, however,you cannot have religionization of politics happening without politicization of religion, if that is making any sense at all.

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Keep it clean, people!